WHEN YOU SHOP for meals—whether or not produce or meat or eggs—and see a label that claims “natural,” what do you suppose which means? At its most basic stage, I suppose I at all times thought it meant greens grown on the fields of an natural farm—like, within the soil, or animals raised in its pastures.
However more and more, as hydroponics have turn into extra widespread, soil isn’t at all times a part of the natural food-raising equation.
At the moment’s visitor is Linley Dixon, a Colorado-based natural farmer who can also be co-director of the Actual Natural Undertaking, an advocacy group of farmers who develop within the soil and collectively search to guard the integrity of the natural label’s that means on meals. Actual Natural Undertaking is holding a daylong convention Oct.14 in Hudson, N.Y., with an awesome lineup of presenters from the natural group, and we’ll hear about that, too.
Learn alongside as you take heed to the Oct. 2, 2023 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You’ll be able to subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify or Stitcher (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
the actual natural challenge, with linley dixon
the actual natural challenge, with linley dixon
Margaret Roach: Hello, Linley, thanks for coming in from the greenhouses and the fields to assist and speak to me about this. Thanks.
Linley Dixon: Hello, Margaret. I’ve been a very long time fan of the podcast and your writings.
Margaret: Yeah. So once more, you’d suppose I might know these items. Having been a vegetarian most of my life and having been a client of natural merchandise ceaselessly and ever and so forth, you’d suppose I will surely be alerted. However till speaking to you over latest years, I actually didn’t perceive the distinctions. And that is one thing that’s not only for greens and herbs and so forth, however for pasture-raised animals, for even blueberries—blueberries may be achieved with out soil. And so inform us slightly about what Actual Natural Undertaking is, and what the inspiration of it’s, and the way it obtained began. What was the impetus?
Linley: Positive. Proud to do it. At its coronary heart, it’s a farmer-led motion. So I’m the co-director with Vermont tomato farmer that you could be know of as a result of he’s nearer to you, Dave Chapman. He’s most likely among the finest natural tomato farmers within the nation. And he grows tomatoes below about 2-1/2 acres of those Dutch-style glass greenhouses within the soil, which it’s important to differentiate now. You didn’t must below the Natural Customary. However in recent times—and he was the one which began to note this as a result of he actually does promote a variety of wholesale—he was competing with tomatoes that form of tasteless and mealy and discovered that they have been hydroponic.
And he thought, “Nicely, that’s a mistake.” And I really met him when he had raised the difficulty with a bunch of different farmers, principally in New England, however it was spreading throughout the nation that hydroponics was being allowed. And whenever you’re an natural farmer, you’re just about all consumed with the well being of your soil. And so this actually struck a chord with a variety of farmers throughout the nation. So I met him at these conferences the place we have been attempting to reform the natural program and ensure that natural stayed targeted on soil well being.
Margaret: Proper. As a result of as an natural gardener for many years, and in my writing and in my pondering, I consider that what you simply stated. I consider “feed the soil, not the plant,” that I’m constructing soil well being, and that’s the inspiration from whom all blessings circulation. what I imply? That’s the idea of the entire meals chain, the entire life chain, so to talk. So it surprises me that rising hydroponically can be natural. So the natural customary was what from the mid-’90s or one thing, the nationwide standards-
Linley: They wrote the legislation, the Natural Meals Manufacturing Act in 1990, however it took 10 years to really create requirements primarily based on that legislation, and it was a really democratic, farmer-led course of. And so there have been a variety of skeptical farmers initially, as a result of the USDA hasn’t at all times liked or supported natural, they usually have been nervous at hand it over to them. However as a result of the method included this concept of a Nationwide Natural Requirements Board and there was going to be a variety of stakeholder suggestions within the course of, the farmers obtained on board. And it was in 2000 that they began implementing to form of the nationwide customary. After all, there have been at all times these, and I’m positive in your space it’s the NOFAs and the MOFGAs, however there’s out west the CCOF; all of them had their very own requirements. And the thought was to have form of an ordinary throughout the nation that was the identical.
To make an extended story brief, I believe all of the farmers got here collectively across the hydroponic problem. However there have been issues from the very starting, the place the USDA didn’t actually implement the requirements, although the legislation is a extremely good customary, the enforcement was missing from the very starting, principally round getting animals out on pasture. I imply, they have been certifying these massive hen barns. And it’s to the purpose the place whenever you enable a decrease customary, it actually drives out the upper customary, simply because below the identical label, it’s a less expensive methodology of manufacturing.
Margaret: Proper. After all. After all. And so what you simply hinted at is that this isn’t simply hydroponic versus within the soil for vegetation, it’s additionally animals raised in barns, in buildings, primarily, enclosed, that aren’t pasture-raised. And so for these of us who love going to the native suppliers the place we reside and seeing it says that—I imply, the phrases was once issues like “free-range” or no matter, however it’ll say “pasture-fed” or no matter it says that makes you at all times suppose, “Oh, that’s higher.” You might be prepared to pay the premium worth as a result of you’ll be able to visualize that. And this, although a few of these animals, and the eggs from chickens, and among the meats and so forth may be labeled natural, the animals weren’t residing in that imagined idyllic for situation in any respect [laughter]. And but they’re natural.
Linley: And many individuals are shocked that we grew to become an add-on customary. It’s like if it’s gone so incorrect, why would we require natural certification first? However what we see with these different phrases, such as you talked about, issues like pasture or animal welfare, it’s like in the event you don’t have an ordinary—it’s occurring to “regenerative” proper now—then it simply will get so simply co-opted. So there really is a extremely good legislation in place. And so the thought of making an ordinary can be the hope is to really apply stress for reform in order that we will save all this work that actually farmers have labored on over the course of their lifetime.
Margaret: So that you’re a farmer, you’ve been an natural farmer, you’re in Colorado, you elevate greens. How massive is your farm and the way lengthy have you ever been doing it? Any specialties? Is there something that you just’re only a super-expert in [laughter]?
Linley: Nicely, Dave and I hit it off as a result of we’re each tomato farmers at our core. I imply, he began with oxen and each vegetable you’ll be able to think about, and actually specialised in tomatoes. However we nonetheless have many various crops on our farm. However Dave really mentored me within the final 5 years for find out how to develop tomatoes higher in a greenhouse. And it actually modified the economics of our farm. And it’s one thing that I believe anyone can do really in the event that they study just a few little strategies, whilst a house gardener, issues like grafting and even simply trellising so that you just’re harvesting at eye stage, that transforms actually the convenience of find out how to produce tomatoes, after which additionally simply whether or not or not they rot on the bottom or on the vegetation. In the event that they break up, you actually can get double the yield fairly simply with some primary strategies.
Margaret: So that you stated greenhouse and earlier than whenever you have been speaking about Dave Chapman’s operation, you stated greenhouse otherwise you stated… Really you didn’t name it greenhouses, you call-
Linley: Glass greenhouses.
Margaret: Glass greenhouses, proper. And so simply once more, so individuals visualize, we’re speaking about on high of soil, so it’s to manage different elements. And tomatoes specifically I believe have a variety of points—as everyone knows, who develop them [laughter]—with fungal ailments and soil splash and spores transferring up the ladder of the leaves from the underside to the highest, and every kind of issues. And I’m completely oversimplifying, however within the extra managed atmosphere that you just’re describing, and it may even be a excessive tunnel, I suppose, a easy, not-greenhouse-but-greenhouse, we will management slightly extra of that. And increasingly more farmers have gone to that, and even a few of my backyard buddies have gone to that not less than attempting to reduce among the havoc. The havoc.
Linley: Even one thing so simple as grafting will double your yields, and you could really do. I do it with slightly Johnny’s stand the place there’s a tent that goes over the seedling stand. And so a few of these strategies are literally fairly simple to adapt by yourself gardens.
Margaret: So that you’re grafting the tomato, the number of tomato, you want to eat, to reap, onto a rootstock that’s sturdier and extra immune to issues. Is that what you’re doing?
Linley: Proof against issues, but in addition simply meant to develop actually massive and powerful.
Margaret: O.Ok. So each.
Linley: So the roots simply get a a lot larger space within the soil.
Margaret: Proper. In order a longtime natural farmer—and we each agreed that “feed the soil, not the plant” is the inspiration of natural agriculture, whether or not in a backyard setting or a farm setting. However are there different issues that you’d say to this viewers listening who’re dwelling gardeners principally, which are the foundational ideas that you just observe that be just right for you? Whether or not the littler hints, like the particular one you simply spoke about, say grafting, or that you just’re rising in a greenhouse, however different issues that you just suppose are actually foundational to success in natural rising?
Linley: Yeah. Dave at all times advised me it’s not anybody tip, however it’s the fruits of all of my data that makes this all work. However one that actually caught with me is he taught me to really use my compost purposes by making use of them each two to 3 weeks from a bucket [above]. Simply sprinkle the compost proper on high of the drip strains (that’s how we irrigate our tomatoes, due to all that soil splash). Do this as an alternative of including all of the compost initially of the season, which could create an anaerobic atmosphere relying on how sizzling your compost is, however actually simply sprinkle it on high of the drip strains. Each couple of weeks creates a fair launch from the compost of vitamins. I bear in mind Eliot Coleman, who’s an advisor to our challenge, and I obtained to satisfy him. He gave me the perfect definition of natural farming that I’ve ever heard, and it was so easy, so it simply actually caught.
He stated that “natural farming is so simple as including natural matter to the soil.” And I imply, that’s simply says all of it. as a result of if that’s occurring, you’re mitigating the necessity for any of those exterior fertilizers and even pest management, as a result of in the event you’re taking note of the soil natural matter actually locks up and slow-releases vitamins. In order that manner, I’m positive you’ve seen, Margaret, in the event you apply an excessive amount of nitrogen, the aphids come, the bugs come. So that spotlight to how a lot, how slowly these vitamins are launched, that’s the prevention that natural farmers…
And there’s some insurance coverage in that natural matter that it’ll be launched over time. So you’ve much more flexibility. You may get issues incorrect within the natural matter, form of modifications it for you so it finally ends up understanding appropriately. I believe that definition, in the event you can hold that in thoughts, I imply it’s natural farming, the farming of carbon. Natural chemistry is the chemistry of carbon. So fascinated by all of that natural matter, that’s what natural farming is.
Margaret: So Eliot Coleman, you stated, and he’s an advisor to Actual Natural Undertaking, and a variety of us gardeners know him from his actually essential books, one of many early voices for natural, not simply farming-
Linley: For gardening.
Margaret: Sure, precisely. And to inform us about his ways. And so he wrote actually, actually essential works and has been an inspiration to many over time. So no shock that he’s on board with this.
So that you stated you simply used the phrase “paying consideration,” and never in the identical manner I’m going to ask you about it. However I additionally suppose that’s one of many issues is that—and I take advantage of the expression “you’ll be able to’t set it and neglect it”—when you’re the steward of residing issues, you’ll be able to’t simply stick them within the floor or sow the seed after which stroll away and return at harvest time [laughter]. I believe vigilance is one other actually essential talent and tactic of an natural grower, particularly who’s not going to have the ability to rush in with some “treatment,” some chemical treatment, if issues begin to go off. However watching I believe is admittedly essential. And I assume that you’ve a vigilance practice-
Linley: You do-
Margaret: … on the farm.
Linley: … otherwise you get in bother, proper?
Margaret: Sure. So to me, that’s one other one of many issues.
Linley: I believe scale is an attention-grabbing problem in natural. They’ve by no means actually restricted scale, however I believe inherently it’s scale-limiting as a result of we speak of as farmers, the eyes-to-acres ratio. You’ll be able to’t let the acreage get so massive that in the event you’re a standard farm and also you miss a pest outbreak within the nook of a subject 100 miles away or 100 acres away, you’re all proper, you’ll be able to simply go get a twig for that pest. However as an natural farmer, you don’t have that as form of a straightforward repair, so that you do, it’s important to verify.
We really had a whitefly outbreak this yr and we’ve by no means had that. And also you’ve obtained to catch it early they usually can take out a complete crop. And so we’ve obtained bio-control that’s a part of that course of. You set little sticky tape over the areas or proper within the areas the place you see the outbreak, and it’s important to get on it early. As a result of we even have completely different greenhouses, and a few of them are hoop homes and in our hoop home we missed it, and it took the crop out. And in our greenhouse, we have been capable of catch it and use this bio-control course of.
So yeah, simply protecting on high of it, we don’t have that simple repair, so we lose our crop if we miss it. And that’s a part of why biodiversity is so key, as a result of if we do lose one thing as a result of a very unhealthy yr for a pest, then actually, our enterprise doesn’t rely on needing a twig. We are able to simply let that crop go, and it’s a great yr for one thing else.
Margaret: Proper. Yeah. So, I imply, tomatoes, it sounds such as you’ve upped the sport and also you’ve found out methods to get round among the main points with these, I really feel like… Are there different crops which are essential ones in your choices or is that the first driver of the enterprise?
Linley: That’s the one which definitely makes all of it work, financially. However I’m experimenting as a result of within the greenhouses you’ll be able to’t develop your personal fertility, we actually rely on compost for our fertility. However out within the fields, I’ve been experimenting currently with find out how to have our aisles in order that they’re creating the fertility for the rows fcompostAnd that’s been actually enjoyable to observe, as a result of what’s occurred is the aisles have expanded slightly bit extra, and our complete cropping approach has modified. And what we do is we mow the aisles into the rows after which we’ll incorporate that “inexperienced manure” is what farmers name it, that form of cowl crop.
We incorporate that into the rows, however you don’t need to mow them unexpectedly since you need a few of them to flower. And the bio-control that is available in on the flowering weeds from the aisles is fairly superior to observe.
So so long as you’ll be able to hold that biology biking, that’s one thing that’s new on our farm that I’ve been form of obsessive about. As a result of in the event you can develop your personal fertility on the farm, then you definately don’t have to fret about any… You carry stuff in off the farm and it might need herbicide carryover, or there are environmental points with the place it was harvested or mined. So it’s form of the very best stage of environmental stewardship is in the event you can work out find out how to develop your personal fertility on the farm. And I haven’t perfected it. I don’t know if I ever will, however it’s been enjoyable to attempt.
Margaret: That’s attention-grabbing. So that you’re in a way rising a few of your cowl crops, as you say, within the aisles in between the rows the place you or machines-
Linley: Stroll.
Margaret: … would stroll or drive. Attention-grabbing.
Linley: It’s stunning as a result of then the tractor wheels are at all times going over pasture on naked filth, so there’s resiliency there. However you additionally don’t lose any house actually to develop that fertility as a result of it’s really the place you’re strolling anyway, and also you don’t must weed it too. That’s an attractive factor.
Margaret: Attention-grabbing. So in doing the Actual Natural Undertaking, do you discover that when you’ve occasions—such as you’re having one really not removed from me in Columbia County New York in mid-October, which has an awesome lineup of audio system and so forth. However do you discover that whenever you exit and also you current and speak to individuals about Actual Natural Undertaking, are there some astonished? Is it the identical couple of questions each time, or the identical aghast seems [laughter] about the identical facet of it?
As a result of for me, one of many issues was, and I discussed it on the very starting rapidly, the truth that blueberries have been being grown hydroponically—I imply, even woody vegetation, have you learnt what I imply? Even shrubs. As a result of to me, talking of helpful bugs and having an atmosphere, a biodiverse atmosphere, I imply, blueberries, wow. These are a few of my helper vegetation right here within the backyard. They appeal to pollinators they usually simply do every kind of excellent issues moreover making blueberries [laughter].
Linley: Yeah. They reside most likely 40, 50 years. However now we have an incredible podcast. And so everyone is in a unique stage of understanding of those points. And so I might suggest listening to that podcast in the event you’re confused by this and need to perceive it higher. And Hugh Kent, who’s a blueberry farmer, he has a few them. His most up-to-date was a chat at Eco Farm, and really in the event you can watch that one, as a result of you’ll be able to see his slides, it’s fairly surprising the environmental impression of those hydroponic farms. They usually’re actually plastic, on plastic, on plastic, these massive sandwiches, and all of the fertility is coming in.
After which the vegetation are achieved in 4 to 5 years, your complete plastic farm will get thrown out, after which they begin it over once more. So the environmental impression is fairly extreme, and it’ll show you how to perceive the way in which an natural farmer thinks. We interview a variety of farmers, however there’s cooks and authors on there, too. It simply helps you suppose extra holistically how natural farmers are fascinated by their farm. And it would show you how to perceive why issues like grazing and soil well being are so essential to us.
Margaret: Yeah. So you’ve, what, possibly 1,200 farms who’re members of the Actual Natural Undertaking at this level all in several areas of the nation, is that proper?
Linley: Yeah. And these are farmers which are agreeing to a different inspection on high of the USDA inspection that’s a part of this program. In order that’s fairly astonishing to see how rapidly it’s grown in such a short while. Farmers get this, they perceive the necessity for this. [Below, the USDA organic label, and the Real Organic Project one each require a separate inspection.]
Margaret: I wished to ask you extra about that. So I believe on the convention in October, you’re going to do one of many shows, and I believe you’re going to speak about form of what units these member farmers aside and the way can customers help them, and help the work of this group. So inform us slightly bit in regards to the spotlight reel of that a part of the convention.
Linley: Yeah. I believe most individuals would simply need to hear what we’re making certain in the event you search for this sticker. And so we did speak in regards to the soil well being and pasturing, however we additionally be sure that the entire farm is assembly these natural, these increased natural practices, as a result of there may be a variety of fraud that occurs when you’ve a break up operation, when you’ve some standard manufacturing and a few natural. And one of many greatest ones, there was just some acres of natural manufacturing that had an natural seal, after which a variety of standard stuff went via that natural certificates. So the entire farm must be natural.
There are employee welfare protections. So that is actually simply form of pushing the bar ahead. Actually when the farmers stopped being concerned and simply handed it over to the USDA, that complete idea of steady enchancment below the seal that we actually had with our regional chapters went away. So we’re simply attempting to carry that again, and proceed to enhance over time.
Margaret: And non-farmers—how do customers have interaction with Actual Natural Undertaking? I imply, I assume it’s a nonprofit, so that you most likely have donors, and do individuals simply attend your occasions and help these farmers and-
Linley: We’ve obtained this nice web site, so go to the web site. You’ll be able to see the convention that’s at Churchtown Dairy on October 14th, very first thing. After which we’re really releasing a brand new web site in a couple of month, however you’ll be able to go now. There’s a ton of movies, podcasts, the letters. We now have one thing referred to as Actual Mates the place it’s a e-book membership, however a part of this group is to ask eaters to assist the farmers alongside. And that may imply simply telling your mates about your favourite podcast episodes, or going to your co-op and saying, “Do you’ve any Actual Natural merchandise?” In order that hopefully your farmers regionally can get slightly little bit of an edge as a result of they’re actually having bother getting markets and the value level is so low, so you’ll be able to assist them out by requesting actual natural merchandise in your shops too.
Margaret: You’re in Colorado, and what zone are you technically, the place you farm?
Linley: Oh gosh, there are such a lot of microclimates. So I might say we’re a 6-something, however it is dependent upon the yr, and local weather modifications creating every kind of modifications.
Margaret: It’s. It’s.
Linley: So I don’t even know anymore.
Margaret: Yeah. So that you talked about tomatoes. So are you winding down your season or do you do off season crops as properly? Do you have-
Linley: So the humorous factor right here is definitely it doesn’t get actually within the single digits so far as chilly, however our season’s actually brief, as a result of we’re excessive elevation. So we obtained our first frost most likely this weekend. It’s at all times across the third week of September. And our final frost is, oh gosh, in the course of June typically. So now we have a couple of 90-day window, which is wow.
Margaret: Wow!
Linley: And we get these form of passing hailstorms too as a result of that’s what occurs within the mountains. In order that’s why I’ve all of those completely different ranges of tunnels. And even out within the subject, now we have a variety of Reemay and methods to guard the crops on the sphere.
Margaret: Attention-grabbing. Nicely, Linley Dixon, co-director of the Actual Natural Undertaking, thanks for giving us a 101 on this topic. Very, very counterintuitive to suppose that natural doesn’t imply grown within the soil, however thanks for alerting us to that. And I hope I’ll speak to you once more quickly.
Linley: Thanks a lot, Margaret,
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